"There are no free lunches in engineering" -Jan Roskam

"Jayhawk Jake" (jayhawkjake) 12/27/2013 at 22:16 • Filed to: Friday night rants

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I want to share this quote as it's become a staple for me. Jan Roskam is a well respected aerospace engineer, he was a design professor at KU for much of his career and founded an aerospace consulting firm. I've been told he had a hand in the design of some unique planes such as the Piaggio 180 and Grumman X-29. When I was a senior he taught a fantastic aerospace engineering history course, and that was where I first heard this fantastic line:

"There are no free lunches in engineering."

What does that mean? Engineering and design are all about trade offs. You get nothing for free. For example, composites are lighter and stronger than metal. So why don't we make everything out of them? They are expensive, difficult or impossible to repair, and brittle.

Jason wrote this article about Orion: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

He proposes a solution, but as Jan Roskam would say, there are no free lunches in engineering. Jason's solution would involve extra cost, extra weight, and extra complexity versus the baseline mission plan. So while it may seem like a reasonable solution, nothing is that simple.

Next time you question an engineering decision just remember: "there are no free lunches in engineering"

Dr Emilio Lizardo > Jayhawk Jake 12/27/2013 at 22:19

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My favorite engineering quote: "good, cheap, fast. Pick any two."

tromoly > Jayhawk Jake 12/27/2013 at 22:25

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My Thermodynamics professor used that phrase quite a bit (especially when explaining the 2nd law), if there was ever one area that could be used as an example of that phrase Thermo would be it.

McMike > Jayhawk Jake 12/27/2013 at 22:25

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Grumman X-29. Weirdest F5 ever.

I'm surprised they got off the ground to be honest.

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > Jayhawk Jake 12/27/2013 at 22:34

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That assumes you are already on the engineering production possibilities frontier (or envelope), so that gaining in one dimension necessarily means losing in another. It's a pretty safe bet that for a large NASA program such as Orion, they are on that frontier, but it is not always the case especially in relatively unexplored and far-from-equilibrium fields.

phenotyp > McMike 12/27/2013 at 22:41

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Hate to be "that guy," but I think you meant to type " *coolest fuckin* F5 ever."

phenotyp > Dr Emilio Lizardo 12/27/2013 at 22:43

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Also, "strong, light, cheap: pick two."

Jayhawk Jake > McMike 12/27/2013 at 22:46

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Twist bend coupling ftw

Jayhawk Jake > Dr Emilio Lizardo 12/27/2013 at 22:47

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Until the FAA gets involved, then it has to be good and it won't be fast or cheap.

Jayhawk Jake > With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username 12/27/2013 at 22:49

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Orion is already in the building and testing phase, so it's way past any major redesign, at least with NASA's small budget

McMike > phenotyp 12/27/2013 at 22:49

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I was in my early teens when I first saw that thing in an AFA magazine, and that's the reaction I was pulling from.

WTF OMG BACKWARDS WINGS WHICH WAY DOES IT FLY! was the first thing that went through my head back then.

Jayhawk Jake > tromoly 12/27/2013 at 22:51

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I suppose, but thermo is a physical law. The phrase is meant more as a practical application of engineering design practices

f86sabre > Jayhawk Jake 12/27/2013 at 22:58

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My boss had this sign above his office for many years. One of the benefits, and curses, of being part of the engineering arm of an airline is there are no avenues for anyone to overrule your decisions when it comes to safety of flight as long as they are within the scope of the regulations. Not saying engineers don't make bad calls, there are safe guards to try and protect from that, but when it gets to the point where you have to put your foot down you have the full authority to
so so.

phenotyp > McMike 12/27/2013 at 23:09

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Yeah, I've been in love with forward-swept wings since I saw that as a kid. One of NASA's X planes had a single, variable-geometry wing, too. One big blade of a wing mounted on top of the fuselage, that could be swung so either the left or the right wing was swept forward, while the other swept back.

Gizmo - The Only Good Gremlin, but don't feed me after Midnight > Jayhawk Jake 12/27/2013 at 23:55

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C'mon everybody knows the FAA only requires "good enough"

Jayhawk Jake > f86sabre 12/27/2013 at 23:59

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Good point.

I'm still new to the industry, so when I actually think about the level of authority I have it's just...weird. The responsibility that comes with the engineer title and the level of expertise it means you have is a strange feeling to me when I consider that 6 years ago I pretty much knew nothing about engineering

Jayhawk Jake > Gizmo - The Only Good Gremlin, but don't feed me after Midnight 12/28/2013 at 00:01

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Not really...

desertdog5051 > Jayhawk Jake 12/28/2013 at 00:40

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A friend of mine is a civil engineer. He came over to help lay a single layer of paver like stones around the edge of the driveway. I told him they do not have to be perfect, just not really out of place.

In 2 hours, I had 7/8ths of it done (looked good). He was only on his 6th or 7th block. He spent so much time making sure that everything was perfect. Gotta love him, but jeez, that is why nothing gets done at his house until I come over.

f86sabre > Jayhawk Jake 12/28/2013 at 09:55

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What gets really interesting is when you have an engineer a couple of years out of school telling a lead mechanic with 25 years how something needs to be done. Good engineers will work with the mechanics and take the good ideas, but sometimes you just can't substantiatiate what they want to do. If that is the case then no go.

i-do-strange-things > Jayhawk Jake 12/28/2013 at 12:25

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A sign in my buddies machine shop:

" there comes a time in every project to shoot the engineers + start production."